Ryzen Platform Affected by RTC Bias; W8/8.1/10 Not Allowed on Select Benchmarks

In a statement issued by the Head of Moderation Christian Ney, we have confirmed that the AM4 platform is affected by the Windows 8/8.1/10 RTC bias. The bias occurs when adjusting the reference clock at run-time and will affect the Windows timer, causing benchmarks to perceive time slower (or faster) than it really is. This results in benchmark scores affected in such a way that the benchmark scores reported do not reflect real performance.

The RTC bias is referenced in the ROG Crosshair VI Hero Extreme Overclocking guide available on Overclocking.guide: "Timer is skewed when changing REFCLK in Windows 8+. Additionally the default systimer has issues with OS ratio changes unless HPET is enabled. To summarize, always enable HPET on this platform."

We described the behavior of the RTC bias in an article published on August 18, 2013 (see below). We also issued rules updates for the Skylake platform in an article published on November 5, 2015.

“The concept of ‘time’ on a PC configuration is, if not synced via network or internet, an arbitrarily defined constant designed to ensure that the configuration is running in sync with the real world. In other words: hardware and software engineers ensure that ‘one second’ on your PC equals ‘one second’ in real time. One of the reasons why it’s so important to have the PC’s timer line up with the real world time is to ensure that your PC can produce accurate measurements and predictions.” The points we brought up in that editorial are relevant again. To ensure that the arbitrarily defined constant of ‘time’ is the same on everyone’s benchmark system, we rely on the OS and hardware. This worked quite well, until Windows8 came around.

The problem builds on the problems we faced with Heaven. When downclocking the system under Windows8, the Windows RTC is affected as well. The biggest difference between Windows7 and Windows8 is that now all benchmarks (no exception) are affected.

Let us make this more practical. On our Haswell test system we downclocked the BCLK frequency by about 6% from 130 MHz to 122MHz. Using a CPU ratio of respectively 32x and 34x, the resulting CPU frequency remains 4160MHz. Then we ran comparison benchmarks.

With immediate effect, we no longer accept AM4-based overclocking result submissions with Windows 8/8.1/10-based Operating Systems for benchmarks listed in the General Rules, Section 1.6. You are allowed to use those operating systems with approved benchmarks such as the entire 3DMark suite, GPUPI, HWBOT X265 Benchmark, Y-Cruncher, Realbench and CPU-Z. We will keep you updated on any changes to this list.

For reliable performance measurements with at run-time overclocking, we recommend enabling the High Performance Event Timer (HPET). Alternatively you can opt to use a Windows 7 based operating system. Note that at run-time overclocking using the CPU multiplier will not result in RTC bias (under investigation).

We are also investigating the impact of the "Ryzen Sleep bug" possibly affecting benchmark integrity.

The HWBOT Staff.


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Belgium Massman says:

For reference;

[IMG]https://hwbotnews.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/windows8-81-10.png[/IMG]

United States maddog39 says:

We won't be able to use Windows 7 forever so is there any solution in sight for future hardware releases because it doesn't seem like there is?

United States Mysticial says:

maddog39 said: We won't be able to use Windows 7 forever so is there any solution in sight for future hardware releases because it doesn't seem like there is?


Unlikely. Microsoft has made the decision to stick with software timers. And the overclocking community is too small for them to care about.

There are valid reasons why they use software timers - they are orders of magnitude faster than hardware timers. So while it pisses off the competitive overclocking community, it benefits everyone else.

In other words, the environment is changing and we'll need to adapt our benchmarks for it.

France Taloken says:

Skylake solved the problem, why Ryzen doesn't ?

Australia gazza30 says:

Thought this was only possible on certain boards?

Belgium Massman says:

gazza30 said: Thought this was only possible on certain boards?


More boards will be available in the coming months that support reference clock overclocking.

Australia newlife says:

I'm guessing based on "Desktops and laptops without bus clocking tuning capabilities" means Windows 10 is fine on everything but hero and k7

Puerto Rico chispy says:

So if a board does not support reference clock overclocking , example Asrock B350 , is it ok to use windows 10 ? We need clarification on this , please. Thank you.

Germany der8auer says:

If we want to make HWBOT/Benching more popular again we have to find a solution for this. Nobody is using Win7 these days anymore on high-end rigs. We automatically exclude a lot of potentially interested users.

Greece Fasttrack says:

der8auer said: If we want to make HWBOT/Benching more popular again we have to find a solution for this. Nobody is using Win7 these days anymore on high-end rigs. We automatically exclude a lot of potentially interested users.


You hit the head of the nail :)

United States Mr.Scott says:

der8auer said: If we want to make HWBOT/Benching more popular again we have to find a solution for this. Nobody is using Win7 these days anymore on high-end rigs. We automatically exclude a lot of potentially interested users.


Bummer. If they want to bench they will have to adapt to the older OS's just like everybody else did.

M$ isn't going to fix anything, and HWB cannot fix it in house.

Australia newlife says:

der8auer said: If we want to make HWBOT/Benching more popular again we have to find a solution for this. Nobody is using Win7 these days anymore on high-end rigs. We automatically exclude a lot of potentially interested users.


Would a program that shows if HPET is enabled solve the problem or can it be enabled/disabled in windows without restarting?

Germany der8auer says:

newlife said: Would a program that shows if HPET is enabled solve the problem or can it be enabled/disabled in windows without restarting?


Mr.Scott said: Bummer. If they want to bench they will have to adapt to the older OS's just like everybody else did.

M$ isn't going to fix anything, and HWB cannot fix it in house.



I know that [MENTION=131]elmor[/MENTION] was working on a software like that but I'm not sure what the current status is.

Indonesia Lucky_n00b says:

der8auer said: If we want to make HWBOT/Benching more popular again we have to find a solution for this. Nobody is using Win7 these days anymore on high-end rigs. We automatically exclude a lot of potentially interested users.


Agree.

Suggestion: maybe we can start a list of motherboard without BCLK tuning capabilities (IIRC, board without clockgen cannot change BCLK in Ryzen, right?), and making motherboard tab mandatory for those w8/8.1/10 submissions?

United States Fouquin says:

Suggestion: maybe we can start a list of motherboard without BCLK tuning capabilities (IIRC, board without clockgen cannot change BCLK in Ryzen, right?), and making motherboard tab mandatory for those w8/8.1/10 submissions?


This would be awesome. I've had scores blocked that were run on a motherboard that has no such functionality enabled. (X370 XPower Titanium)

United States Mr.Scott says:

Fouquin said: This would be awesome. I've had scores blocked that were run on a motherboard that has no such functionality enabled. (X370 XPower Titanium)


That board can absolutely control BCLK. It's their top of the line board.
It was right to be blocked.

United States Mr.Scott says:

newlife said: Would a program that shows if HPET is enabled solve the problem or can it be enabled/disabled in windows without restarting?

Hpet is not the only problem. Clock skew can happen with Hpet on as well.

Not trying to be negative here, but the odds of a wrapper or software that fixes this without fail, or glitch, is not very promising. I mean, you're basically re-engineering how an OS works. If it were that simple don't you think M$ would have done it on W10 knowing it wasn't right on any of the W8's.

Bulgaria I.nfraR.ed says:

Mr.Scott said: That board can absolutely control BCLK. It's their top of the line board.
It was right to be blocked.


No, it doesn't. There are only 4 boards so far that have external clockgen - Hero, Taichi, top model Fatal1ty which hs the same PCB as Taichi and Gigabyte K7.

United States Mr.Scott says:

My bad, you are correct. I assumed that everybody's top X370 board could control BCLK. Apparently that's not the case.

United States rtsurfer says:

der8auer said: If we want to make HWBOT/Benching more popular again we have to find a solution for this. Nobody is using Win7 these days anymore on high-end rigs. We automatically exclude a lot of potentially interested users.


Last time this was brought up, they said they have a solution in the works, expect something soon.

Pretty sure that happened 1-1.5 years ago. :rolleyes:

Australia newlife says:

Why are people with perfectly valid win 10 scores and ryzen being removed

Australia newlife says:

Mr.Scott said: Hpet is not the only problem. Clock skew can happen with Hpet on as well.


Would you mind giving an example because unless I'm mistaken gpupi only checks if HPET is enabled

Puerto Rico chispy says:

Any word or update on this topic yet ?

Greece Fasttrack says:

Does anyone really believe that MS cares for an extremely small minority of Overclocking Fanatics ?

United States Mysticial says:

Fasttrack said: Does anyone really believe that MS cares for an extremely small minority of Overclocking Fanatics ?


Of course not. There's no money to be made. So unless the overclocking community starts feeding Microsoft with millions of dollars, they're not gonna go out of their way to make us happy.

France Taloken says:

I permit myself to re-ask :) "Skylake solved the problem, why Ryzen doesn't ?"

Christian Ney says:

AMD didn't read the memo

Germany der8auer says:

Ryzen wasn't meant to be overclocked with BCLK in the first place

Christian Ney says:

Your argument is invalid since even if you change the ratio/multi on the fly, it messes up the timer :D I think you meant "Ryzen wasn't meant to be overclocked" :D

Puerto Rico chispy says:

Since i have went thru the trouble of installing windows 7 just so that i can abide by the rules and bench for points , why on earth there is a gazillion entries on Ryzen cpus running windows 10 and not blocked ???

Is there some kind of special privileges for some members only ???

We need to be clear on this matter as in fact yes , windows 10 it's very buggy at the moment for all Ryzen scores and i can confirm that by my own hands on testing that goes for motherboards with and without external clock generator , i have tested both ( Asus CH 6 Hero and ASRrock B350 ) , it affects all Ryzen motherboards the same way on windows 10. All windows 10 scores are bugged on Ryzen , please mods removed all those bugged scores it is not fair.

Regards: Angelo

Christian Ney says:

I removed them all a couple of weeks ago. Those are new ones that were not reported. There is not someone who is constantly monitoring every single ranking/submission everyday. If you see something wrong, report it and a moderator will check. In case of multiple (understand a lot) of scores, contact one of the moderator by private message.

Puerto Rico chispy says:

Christian Ney said: I removed them all a couple of weeks ago. Those are new ones that were not reported. There is not someone who is constantly monitoring every single ranking/submission everyday. If you see something wrong, report it and a moderator will check. In case of multiple (understand a lot) of scores, contact one of the moderator by private message.


Sure , thanks Christian. See here a nice bugged run for yourself ( Those number are achievable only on LN2 on Windows 7 , he is running windows 10 AIO cooler and 3991Mhz , bad ram mhz and timings ):

bulldog239`s Cinebench - R15 score: 2148 cb with a Ryzen 7 1700X

Puerto Rico chispy says:

Bump ! So people can read the rules again ...

United States Ace123 says:

I'm super pissed about someone coming through and erasing hours of work.
I hate you windows 10

Chile Samsarulz says:

Had a prime X370 Pro (that does not have external clock gen capabilities). Run some benchmarks on W10, should i delete them (only put multiplier up)?
Someone asked the same thing earlier, but he didn´t have a direct reply. Last thing i read was that multiplier OC on Windows 10 was under investigation, or ended having some odd results?
regards

United States zeneffect says:

yes, and there are those who know the rules and are still subbing windows 10 while flagging others.

United States Ace123 says:

Yeah I wish I saw that before spending all that time benching

Belgium leeghoofd says:

Will clean up tonite... there goes my social life

United States n1nja0nas7y says:

I didnt change Base clock on my Benchmark as its not available on the Killer sli/ac board from Asrock. Really theres no point for a ryzen user to run windows 7. Its like kaby lake. Theres no support for anything other than 10. This the same BS that everyone went through during the "I wont leave XP" days.

United States cssorkinmanOCN says:

I put up some scores thinking that the problem had been addressed ( first rig with windows 10 ).
Sorry for making extra work for the mods.
Mr. Scott - the X370 Titanium could not adjust BCLK with bios 1.1 - later versions of the bios now allow for it.

Bulgaria I.nfraR.ed says:

cssorkinmanOCN said: Mr. Scott - the X370 Titanium could not adjust BCLK with bios 1.1 - later versions of the bios now allow for it.


Hmm, thanks for the info. That's interesting, then it has an external PLL?

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