Futuremark Removes Scores from Hall of Fame - Update: Scores with Altered LOD No Longer Valid

Yesterday Futuremark cleaned their Hall of Fame leaderboards in an attempt to remove all scores which don't pass their internal validation checks. The Hall of Fame now only shows historical scores using SystemInfo 4.34 or later. New results must use Systeminfo 4.40 or later. For the latest 3DMark tests, version v1.5.915 is required to ensure full Futuremark validity.

The leaderboards changed quite significantly overnight. We are not entirely sure what made the scores fail to pass the validation checks, but it appears that most of the scores with LOD tweaking enabled are removed from the board. The overall leaders in the most popular 3DMark benchmarks are now Gunslinger (Fire Strike Ultra), Gunslinger (Fire Strike Extreme), and Coolice (Fire Strike).

In the single GPU rankings we find K|ngp|n leading in all three benchmarks.

You can find the announcement on the Futuremark forums.

Update Nov 10: Futuremark informed us that the "change was to enforce the NVIDIA driver LOD settings rules for all results as before using an older SI let you bypass that check for all practical purposes." No more LOD at Futuremark Hall of Fame!


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Belgium Massman says:

LOD is now disallowed for the Hall of Fame

Opinion Request: Should we enforce this on HWBOT as well?

Australia zeropluszero says:

Fuck off. Who gives a shit about their leaderboard anyway. Keep hwbot how it is.

United Kingdom ObscureParadox says:

absolutely not, we're are the advanced users in this community. I get why 3DMark feel the need to do it as most of the people who use their benchmarks are not on this website so they wouldn't fully understand exactly why we do this. The only question I have is, does this now mean that there are no valid links available if we use LOD tweaks?

Australia zeropluszero says:

How many users are actually affected? Considering top 20 are ths only people who need it? There are what? 30 people with the means to be top20?

Poland Xtreme Addict says:

Massman said: LOD is now disallowed for the Hall of Fame

Opinion Request: Should we enforce this on HWBOT as well?


Why? LOD tweaking is the part of the benchmark. Also in such case it would be not equal - Heaven, Catzilla don't have LOD detection, so it would be allowed there :)

Just leave things as they are now

Belgium leeghoofd says:

No change needed... we are the leader, not them :p

United States Lays says:

What exactly is LOD?

United Kingdom nickolp1974 says:

Defo not, if someone wants to be #1 on there leaderboard then let them abide by there rules, far simplar then messing about with our current system here, leave alone!

Brazil Rbuass says:

Well, my 2 cents. Is not a big problem LOD... what??? Any guy, even newcomers, knows that is not hard to set LOD 3, so the reason is to keep VALID SCORES. Why you cannot have AMD cards valid scores... ah.... we all disable Tesselation (example). Sorry to not agree with you, but I think is important, in order to keep fairly community. 1- request always validation links 2- not allow engeenering samples, bioses and NOTHING that's not available to the public 3- not allow points or ranking from scores made from vendors (easy to have special tools, like BIOSES, binned and special cards, and so on If we follow, and made this way, I am sure more people will have chance to compete same level. About LOD, please, don't let me understand you really think is hard and tweak set the LOD in NVInspector... and understand the reason is not only the LOD CHEAT, but for sure, is to make people use the right versions... so... can you explain old system infos, old benchmark versions and so on? Is not a DRAMA... only new standard to bench... with image quality. is just my opinion... with respect... and no complaining with anyone... Ah... I had very good scores and ranked points in Hall of Fame before... my scores was all removed ok? ... So... I am not talking because I will be better.

United States Gunslinger says:

Massman said: LOD is now disallowed for the Hall of Fame Opinion Request: Should we enforce this on HWBOT as well?
IMO this should have been disallowed years ago right along with tessellation being disabled. But Pandora's box has already been opened, and I don't think there's any going back now. Embrace being different from the FM HOF I say. :p

Romania poparamiro says:

Instead of asking about LOD disable, hire a pro to make utility to disable tessellation in nvidia drivers.

South Africa Vivi says:

i'm fine with either, scores are relative anyway.

Australia newlife says:

Lays said: What exactly is LOD?


It's how textures in the distance rendered, so basically with a high (positive) lod setting you make the textures up close like they would be at a distance and with minus lod you make textures at a distance look better

Czech Republic havli says:

LOD should remain allowed here on HWBOT, imho. It is important part of the 3D benchmarking process.

Banning it would be extremely difficult anyway, since there are thousands of submissions... and noone can tell which is using default LOD and which isn't.

Australia newlife says:

poparamiro said: Instead of asking about LOD disable, hire a pro to make utility to disable tessellation in nvidia drivers.


It's not really hard to use nvinspector to change lod past 3

For those who don't know http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=61804

Also I'm more than happy to share the version I use plus custom settings file

Australia zeropluszero says:

rbuass said: 1- request always validation links
2- not allow engeenering samples, bioses and NOTHING that's not available to the public
3- not allow points or ranking from scores made from vendors (easy to have special tools, like BIOSES, binned and special cards, and so on

Lol good one

Sweden Rauf says:

Doesn't really matter for me. Fine with either...BUT, if you really should follow our current rules it is already disallowed :) "Disallowed tweaks/cheats - Rendered image differs too much from the original due to other software tweaking" If LOD 5+ doesn't differ much from original image I don't know what does... LOD is like alcohol or tobacco, it is only allowed because it has always been a huge part of our society. If it had been invented today it would definitely be illegal :)

Sweden lanbonden says:

Rauf said: Doesn't really matter for me. Fine with either...BUT, if you really should follow our current rules it is already disallowed :)

"Disallowed tweaks/cheats - Rendered image differs too much from the original due to other software tweaking"
If LOD 5+ doesn't differ much from original image I don't know what does...

LOD is like alcohol or tobacco, it is only allowed because it has always been a huge part of our society. If it had been invented today it would definitely be illegal :)


So true, and banning it now would render all old HW scores unbeatable.

GENiEBEN says:

focking texture hax0rs /s

United States xxbassplayerxx says:

Wait... are you trying to tell me that the butterfly in 03 doesn't actually have square wings?! :eek:

Australia zeropluszero says:

The butterfly has wings?

websmile says:

There is a butterfly in 03? :p Interesting :)

Aleslammer says:

Can of worms, should of initiated on a new hardware release and not made it retroactive, sort of like they caught a bunch of folks cheating. Going to need a hardware cutoff date if the validation is kept for the top 20.

says:

I must be one of the VERY FEW here not to use LOD cheats when benching.
Am I an a*hole or what ?

Should I re-run all the benchmarks with LOD and gain 200 Globals or what ?

I am dead serious asking.

Seems cheating in many kind of benchmarks is the norm.

And everyone talks about rules and win7 allowed here and 8 there and 10 elsewhere.
Either we all cheat or we do not.

HWBOT must decide sooner than later.

websmile says:

Using LOD was never a cheat, George, it was always allowed and considered a tweak. It is even allowed explicitly at hwbot rules, I am not sure it now makes sense to disallow it all of a sudden. Fact is, it will be hard to change things if LOD is disallowed because hwbot would have to make fm link mandatory for all results, and not all benchmarks have LOD detection iirc. Not sure this makes sense

Germany aerotracks says:

websmile said: There is a butterfly in 03? :p Interesting :)


:D

says:

websmile said: Using LOD was never a cheat, George, it was always allowed and considered a tweak. It is even allowed explicitly at hwbot rules, I am not sure it now makes sense to disallow it all of a sudden. Fact is, it will be hard to change things if LOD is disallowed because hwbot would have to make fm link mandatory for all results, and not all benchmarks have LOD detection iirc. Not sure this makes sense
Sure it makes sense Michael. I will need all the weekend to re-run benchmarks. Curious to see what comes out of it.:)

United States xxbassplayerxx says:

george.kokovinis said: Sure it makes sense Michael.

I will need all the weekend to re-run benchmarks.
Curious to see what comes out of it.:)


Lots of tweaking in your future. Most benchmarks don't just want max LOD. They all have special levels and it usually changes with every GPU. It adds a whole new world of tweaking to many benchmarks.

Belgium Massman says:

It's always possible to enforce this rule with new benchmarks and allow LOD for the old ones, no?

Australia zeropluszero says:

yeh but why would you want to? why would hwbot give a shit what futuremark rankings do?

Belgium Massman says:

Well, it's always worth consider a policy change at face value. It's not because it's Futuremark that we should per definition do the exact opposite. As far as I know, Futuremark reasons that disallowing an alteration to image quality makes the benchmark more legitimate. I personally find that that a very reasonable argument. I think it's worth at least considering aligning with their ruling (on their benchmarks). I wouldn't see a big problem with following the Futuremark rule-set for the latest set of 3DMarks (everything from Ice Storm to Fire Strike), provided of course there's an easy way for the HWBOT community to generate validation links.

Australia zeropluszero says:

Then what happens when 3dmark becomes end of life?
when its no longer possible to validate links?

Brazil Rbuass says:

Massman said: Well, it's always worth consider a policy change at face value. It's not because it's Futuremark that we should per definition do the exact opposite.

As far as I know, Futuremark reasons that disallowing an alteration to image quality makes the benchmark more legitimate. I personally find that that a very reasonable argument. I think it's worth at least considering aligning with their ruling (on their benchmarks). I wouldn't see a big problem with following the Futuremark rule-set for the latest set of 3DMarks (everything from Ice Storm to Fire Strike), provided of course there's an easy way for the HWBOT community to generate validation links.


Thanks for understanding.


Don't need to discuss about this.... FM just decided, and no more valid links for FS, FSE and FSU.
Be sure, they will keep this new standard, and please... don't tell me that LOD is tweak, because is not to hard to set different level of details.
It makes sense, for example, in 3DM01, where you can reach more points using different LOD for each test... even old 03 and square butterfly, but now, for new benchmarks, even they removed all my scores (I am LOD cheater), I don't mind to follow the new rules, in order to keep better reliability (and even this way, will be not perfect).

That's Hwbot decision... and for me... either is ok... but if I can choose, just informed in my last post my point of view.

" I think is important, in order to keep fairly community.

1- request always validation links
2- not allow engeenering samples, bioses and NOTHING that's not available to the public
3- not allow points or ranking from scores made from vendors (easy to have special tools, like BIOSES, binned and special cards, and so on

If we follow, and made this way, I am sure more people will have chance to compete same level."

Sweden lanbonden says:

Massman said: Well, it's always worth consider a policy change at face value. It's not because it's Futuremark that we should per definition do the exact opposite.

As far as I know, Futuremark reasons that disallowing an alteration to image quality makes the benchmark more legitimate. I personally find that that a very reasonable argument. I think it's worth at least considering aligning with their ruling (on their benchmarks). I wouldn't see a big problem with following the Futuremark rule-set for the latest set of 3DMarks (everything from Ice Storm to Fire Strike), provided of course there's an easy way for the HWBOT community to generate validation links.


In that case it would be reasonable to do it with start of the next 3dmark they launch and keeping LOD allowed for all the current 3dmarks as it wouldnt impact the scoring in that way.

United States techjesse says:

Cool, Futuremark Removes Scores with LOD from Hall of Fame and mine are still there because I don't use LOD. I tried but it doesn't work (on Heaven) I must be doing something wrong. I run Nvidia and AMD GPU's but LOD must be a science all of it's own. TJ

websmile says:

Well, at least it matches direction new FM benches move to - only raw power, no tweaking, next stop then to make detection if stock driver settings were changed and reject the sub if you set high performance instead of default value :D

United States Gunslinger says:

Massman said: It's always possible to enforce this rule with new benchmarks and allow LOD for the old ones, no?
Yes, at least in my opinion.
zeropluszero said: yeh but why would you want to?
Because you're altering the benchmark workload, at what point is it a tweak vs. a hack?

United States steponz says:

techjesse said: Cool, Futuremark Removes Scores with LOD from Hall of Fame and mine are still there because I don't use LOD. I tried but it doesn't work (on Heaven) I must be doing something wrong. I run Nvidia and AMD GPU's but LOD must be a science all of it's own. TJ


yep.. you dont know what your doing.. lol...

LOD helps..

This just nuts.. how about we dumb everything about benching down to point and click and make it fair... Lets have it so people don't really have to test and tweak there stuff to the absolute limit... Lets not learn anything..... lets take out all the curves that people have learned to make it even....

This reminds me of a commercial I saw the other day..

Guy was at a football(American) end of year celebration for his kids league.. his son's team won... and everybody got the participation trophy.. he rips that shit off and writes champs on it..... hell yeah....

Take out LOD.. and ill just skip benching here all together... also.. tesellation off should then be removed also...

says:

steponz said: yep.. you dont know what your doing.. lol... LOD helps.. This just nuts.. how about we dumb everything about benching down to point and click and make it fair... Lets have it so people don't really have to test and tweak there stuff to the absolute limit... Lets not learn anything..... lets take out all the curves that people have learned to make it even.... This reminds me of a commercial I saw the other day.. Guy was at a football(American) end of year celebration for his kids league.. his son's team won... and everybody got the participation trophy.. he rips that bunnyextraction off and writes champs on it..... hell yeah.... Take out LOD.. and ill just skip benching here all together... also.. tesellation off should then be removed also...
Joe, Let's step a bit back, and have a look at the forest and not the tree. First off, I am the last one to have an opinion either way. I carefully read all posts and respected opinions of all top benchers. And you know what ? All have a legit point of view from the corner that the eye looks at things. I have only one question to ask - LOD or no LOD, what do we do since FutureMark has already decided. One approach would be to have the Administrators of HWBOT contact FutureMark and discuss the issue. A more drastic approach would be to leave all scores as they are and drop their benchmarks from HWBOT as a form of protest. Another thought would be to stop asking for verification Link. Just my 0.02 cents folks. It is ok with me either way:)

United States steponz says:

I say screw Futuremark... That site sucks every which way... instead of going through buggy results... they said screw everything old... All results can still go through I think... I say eliminate FM all together.... For all the benchers that put hard work into their submissions... and they do this... thats a total kick in the nuts.... Damn.. I picked the wrong day to not grab a smoke.. shit.. I need to grab another patch.

says:

steponz said: I say screw Futuremark... That site sucks every which way... instead of going through buggy results... they said screw everything old... All results can still go through I think... I say eliminate FM all together.... For all the benchers that put hard work into their submissions... and they do this... thats a total kick in the nuts.... Damn.. I picked the wrong day to not grab a smoke.. bunnyextraction.. I need to grab another patch.
Haha, A good smoke with some LN2 fume and a new WR will calm you down. Come on buddy, don't let your epic efforts and results be upset by a bunch of idiots.:)

Australia zeropluszero says:

george.kokovinis said: Another thought would be to stop asking for verification Link

Here's your answer.

United States techjesse says:

steponz said: yep.. you dont know what your doing.. lol...

LOD helps..

This just nuts.. how about we dumb everything about benching down to point and click and make it fair... Lets have it so people don't really have to test and tweak there stuff to the absolute limit... Lets not learn anything..... lets take out all the curves that people have learned to make it even....

This reminds me of a commercial I saw the other day..

Guy was at a football(American) end of year celebration for his kids league.. his son's team won... and everybody got the participation trophy.. he rips that bunnyextraction off and writes champs on it..... hell yeah....

Take out LOD.. and ill just skip benching here all together... also.. tesellation off should then be removed also...


LOL....

Australia newlife says:

zeropluszero said: Here's your answer.


Amen to that

United States steponz says:

techjesse said: LOL....


hahahha..... awesomeness.... ;)

United States Splave says:

as long as screen off tweak is allowed then the USA is safe :D

Germany Bull56 says:

Oh my god... at least I'm back in Top10 now :D

Australia newlife says:

If I get made to remove all my legacy subs I think that will be the end of me overclocking on hwbot and I'll just stick to my local forums

United States MetalRacer says:

They suck!

Please don't follow suit.

Romania Bruno says:

As i understand when I made my HWBot account this is an overclocking community. And I believe overclocking doesn't mean just raise the clock and voltage and get a score. It also means tweaks and ways to improve your score. I mean I benched the same VGA as someone else, at same clocks, same platform, but i got a lower score. That makes me try again and again to find the proper way (read 'tweaks') to beat that. That is what overclocking means to me. That is what keeps me going. Futuremark can do whatever they want with their HoF. I personally don't bench for the their HoF, just to get higher scores and points on HWBot. If tweaks start to be disallowed, the fun and motivation for OC will be reduced.

United States Strong Island says:

I think it would remove some of the fun if lod tweak was banned. More to tweak should mean more fun for everyone. If everything was click and run it would get a little boring. I think the more tweaks the better. Also it's not that hard to do a run for hwbot and then if the 3dmark leader board is really important to you, you can re-run quick without lod. Also we will still get links after the run to upload with score, they just wont be valid, but it still proves the score.

Bulgaria GunGod says:

rbuass said:
1- request always validation links
2- not allow engeenering samples, [COLOR="Red"]bioses and NOTHING that's not available to the public[/COLOR]
3- not allow points or ranking from scores made from vendors (easy to have special tools, like BIOSES, binned and special cards, and so on


+111
Well said!

I think LOD should be allowed for HWBOT, it is fun (nightmare for some ppl :D ) especialy Vantage for me. Jane oooh Jane ..... you look soooo alien :ws:

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